Scott: Were there any specific heroes that really had a lot of influence on you, apart from the general heroes that everyone looked up to?

Dad: I can't say, really. One of my immediate heroes, in the small town we lived in, was the scoutmaster. His name was Dr. Rieke, and he was a dentist. He wasn't my dentist, because we couldn't afford a dentist. My first dental care was when I was in the army. But Dr. Rieche was the scoutmaster, in Waterville, Minnesota, and he was one of my role models. He was a fine gentleman, spent a lot of time and gave a lot of himself to the community. His wife was a teacher. They were just exemplary citizens, two of the leaders in that town.

Scott: So you were a Boy Scout? What did you do in the Boy Scouts?

Dad: I didn't get my Eagle, because I couldn't swim well enough. I never could pass lifesaving. I had enough merit badges to be an Eagle Scout twice. But I never could get lifesaving, and that's one of the required merit badges to be an Eagle Scout. My brother Russ was an Eagle Scout; I think Wayne was an Eagle Scout, though he took scouting rather lightly. I don't think that Dick ever got involved in scouting. But my father started the first Scout troop in the state of Minnesota in 1914. He had the Troop #1 flag in Minnesota, and he was very proud of that. When he was a minister, wherever he went, he started a Scout troop.

Scott: I'm a little surprised that he wasn't your scoutmaster.

Dad: Well, by that time, he was a little bit long in the tooth. My Dad was 40 when I was born. And in those days, that was old. I was 50 when our youngest was born, and nowdays, that isn't old. But in those days, that was old. My father never played games with me, catch, and things like that, like I played with you guys. But he never played games, he never came out and played ball, or anything like that.

Scott: Was there anything in particular that you learned from the scoutmaster, either by example or by teaching?

Dad: He was just such a fine person. He was honest and kind, and available. And he had a profession, which seemed almost out of reach for us kids in a small town. To be a professional person was just, almost like a dream. And he not only gave of his time, and his knowledge to the scouts and the church, and the town, but he was always available if you needed someone to talk to, or tell your troubles to. If you got into trouble, he would stand up for you.

Scott: Could we touch on something that might go across quite a few years? You grew up as the son of a Methodist minister, evidently a fairly strict religious upbringing ...

Dad: Fairly. But my Dad was more of a Unitarian all the time.

Scott: Now, you are at the very least, a skeptic in religious matters, and very scientifically oriented. What's the evolution of your thought on religious and moral issues?

Dad: It's fairly simple. I've been a skeptic ever since I can remember. I remember a funeral service that my Dad preached at Lake Wilson, Minnesota, and I was four years old when we lived at Lake Wilson. And he had his church there, and a little church at Oxford, Minnesota. Most of the small communities couldn't support a church, so a preacher would have two or three churches. He'd go preach in this one at nine in the morning on Sunday, and the next at eleven, and the next at one in the afternoon, and sometimes, one in the evening.

And he was preaching a funeral service at the cemetery, out at the edge of town -- the cemetery was always out on the edge of town, in these small towns. And I walked out there and listened. And he was describing how the soul would go to Heaven, and actually pointing [up], and all these things. And I just watched and watched, and thought about that, and stayed there after the service and watched, and I never saw anything happen. And from then on, I was skeptical.

Scott: You were an empiricist at age four. [laughs]

Dad: I just didn't feel that the things I was told corresponded to the things I experienced. And as I went on in life, I found that to be more and more true: that what I was told and what I observed and experienced in my life were not the same. And I have to believe what I see. I'll accept any reasonable evidence, but I don't have a whole heck of a lot of blind faith in anything.

Scott: And I gather that your father was .. even if he didn't talk to you about it when you were four years old, that he had a lot of the same thoughts.

Dad: He influenced us. He had a lot of books around the house that he used to read and I was aware of, that had to do with liberal religious philosophy. John Dietrich and some of the theologians of that time. He read them avidly. He became uneasy with being a Methodist minister, and he quit. He just couldn't do that anymore. And he started going to the Unitarian Church when we moved to St. Paul, Minnesota, when I was a freshman in high school, and I started going with him. And I've been going to the Unitarian Church ever since.

Scott: Were there any major events in your childhood that were turning points?

Dad: The most major event in my childhood was getting the hell out of those small towns and moving to St. Paul, Minnesota where I had some opportunities. If we had stayed in Waterville, Minnesota, I'd probably be working for Meany Duesbabbick in his meat market. There was a guy there named "Elmer Duesbabbick," and we called him "Meany" because he was so mean. He had a meat market, and I probably would have worked for him.

Scott: What year was that?

Dad: I was a freshman in high school, so that would have been 1935. But I have thought many times that the most important event of my youth was to get the hell out of those small towns where there was no opportunity for any kind of evolution of your personality, or of your abilities, and no chance for education other than readin', writin', and 'rithmetic, no opportunity for any employment. Really, it was kind of a dismal place to live.

And when we got to St. Paul, I went to a big, inner-city high school, 75 percent black -- I was the only white kid on the first-string football team when I was a junior. And I had all kinds of opportunities open up to me. I had a job all the time, I started thinking about going to college, I got into various things -- singing groups -- got into Golden Gloves and got my head knocked off -- it really opened up a lot of opportunities for me.

Scott: What about girlfriends?

Dad: I had girlfriends from the time I was a little kid. I remember Camille Meyerbachtov.

Scott: She was your first girlfriend?

Dad: No, I don't think so. She was about my third or fourth. We used to have "Mayday," in those days. You'd put a little May basket on your girlfriend's door on May 1st, and then run like the devil, because she was supposed to come out and try to kiss you. I don't think people do that anymore.

I had a normal childhood, a good childhood. I remember the pleasure. I don't try to remember the miserable things.

Scott: When you were a kid, what did you think you would end up doing in life?

Dad: I didn't know. I knew that if I worked hard, and read a lot, and got all the education I could ... that's what my folks kept drilling into me, that education was your key to success. But I always had in mind that I would go to college someday. That was sort of background music for all the rest of this: my certainty that someday, I would go to college. I didn't know where, or when, or how, but I knew that someday, I was going to do that.

And when I finished high school, graduated in June 1940, I went to work for a trucking company because I didn't have enough money to go to college. And I washed trucks, and did menial stuff. And there would be a few runs to pick up some machinery here, and haul it there, and they couldn't find a driver, so I'd take it. I was old enough then, and I had a driver's license. And pretty soon, some of the drivers wouldn't show up for an over the road trip, maybe to Milwaukee, or Chicago, so I'd get that. And it wasn't long, I hadn't worked for that outfit for more than a year, and I was driving regularly.

I was just getting good at backing up a semi when World War II broke out, and I joined the Air Force. But I always knew that if I worked hard, and saved my money, and read a lot, that I'd get my education. I was confident about that.

Scott: Can we touch on a couple more things -- did you have any hobbies?

Dad: Everything. I was involved in all the sports: I played football, basketball, and baseball in high school. In fact, I was first-string on the football team.

Scott: What position did you play?

Dad: Quarterback. I was first-string two years in football, and I was first-string in basketball one year. I was on the basketball team all four years of high school, but only first-string one year. [Lifelong friend] Larry Williams and I were on the basketball team together.

I played baseball, that was my favorite sport, and I was on the team but I was too slow. I was a good hitter, but I was pretty slow. Third base, mostly, or outfield.

Scott: What was your batting average?

Dad: I don't remember. I don't think we kept batting averages. Fact of the matter is, when I was in high school, we had our games after school in the afternoon, 4:30 in the afternoon. The only time we had evening games was during the sectional and regional tournaments. And most of our games, in the afternoon, if 25 people came, we were surprised. Nobody gave a damn. They weren't particularly interested. We'd win a few and lose a few.

Scott: Were you especially interested in science?

Dad: I don't recall that I was intensely interested in any one thing, but I read a lot. I read everything I could get my hands on. And I do recall being quite interested in chemistry in high school; I took some extra chemistry courses that I didn't need to take. I think it was because I admired the chemistry teacher.

Scott: Anyway, it was 1941. You actually enlisted in the Army Air Corps?

Dad: As you know, Pearl Harbor [the Japanese attack on the U.S. naval base at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii] was December 7th, 1941. That was the day the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor. And I joined the army December 9th.

Scott: Why did it take you two days?

Dad: Because I wasn't 21 years old, and you had to have your parents' permission. They had not yet changed the law. They didn't have time to change it.

Scott: Did your parents give it willingly?

Dad: No, they didn't think I should go. And I remember saying to my mother, "It's going to be over before I get in there, if you don't sign this paper."

Scott: So you finally talked her into it.

Dad: Yes. And besides that, you had to have two years of college to go to air crew training, to be a pilot. And I had never been to college. So I went into the ground forces of the Air Corps. It was basically like being in the infantry. We spent most of our time drilling and marching. And then, about a month after I joined, they put up a notice "Air Crew Training Exams." If you could pass, they'd waive the two year college requirement. And Larry Williams and I took it and passed.

Scott: Where was that, by the way?

Dad: Fort Snelling, in St. Paul. But Larry got the highest mark on that air crew training exam of anybody who had ever taken it. The highest mark of anybody who had ever taken it.